Irrationality

Forum rules
Please note: This forum allows the use of anonymous usernames and is a public forum. This means that there probably are members of the PBCC active in the forums. They may try to befriend you with the intention of gathering information that should not get out into the public domain. Be very careful what you say to persons that you do not know. Bear in mind too, that use of a username on another site or forum may not necessarily be the same person on WP with the same username. There have also been actions of copying what is said here to use elsewhere. This is not allowed. Please read the forum rules properly. Full forum rules can be found at http://wikipeebia.com/forum
Post Reply
Ian McKay
Posts: 1434
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:04 am

Irrationality

Post by Ian McKay » Thu May 03, 2018 1:41 pm

Irrationality

Last weekend the Flat Earth Society held a conference in Birmingham, during which delegates learned that most scientists have got the facts of astronomy and other subjects hopelessly wrong. For instance, gravity does not really exist. The earth is constantly moving upwards, and that is what makes things seem to fall downwards. Also, the moon is not real, and the universe is a giant egg-shape.

There was some diversity of opinion, but all were firmly agreed about one thing: the Earth is not a globe. It is flat. Some believe it is a circle under a dome (the “firmament” of Genesis) above which there may or may not be an expanse of water. Some prefer the square model, citing the “four corners of the Earth” referred to in Isaiah 11:12, Revelation 7:1 and Revelation 20:8. Some believe it is supported by pillars as mentioned in Job 9:6.

It has been known for some time that you can travel westward or eastward for as long as you want without falling off the edge, but for the first time the real reason for this finding was explained. The flat surface of the Earth behaves like a Pac-Man screen, so that if you go off one edge you appear on the opposite edge.

Several speakers took time to emphasise that evolution is a false theory, which helps to confirm their conviction that science gets many things hopelessly wrong, possibly as a result of a conspiracy of deception.

Flat-earthers share a number of interesting parallels with Exclusive Brethren. One is their inconsistent desire to discredit science and scientists, while at the same time depending on science for their health, safety, comfort and prosperity. There is something rather dishonest about this. If you are willing to risk your life in an aeroplane or a bridge or a hospital, trusting the science on which they are based, knowing that the science works, you cannot at the same time say scientists just make it all up. JSH and BDH in particular often made scathing remarks about science and scientists. So do flat-earthers.

Another parallel is their tendency to use selected scriptures applied very literally to support their views. It’s easily done.

Another parallel is their questionable sincerity. It is hard to know whether Brethren teachers and flat-earthers genuinely believe the things they say. Do the Brethren really believe that their leaders only say what the Lord has given them to say? Even when they contradict one another and contradict themselves and contradict scripture and contradict well established knowledge and violate moral principles? Is that really the Lord’s doing? Or do the Brethren just pretend to agree?

Another parallel is their inconsistent approval/disapproval of rationality, sometimes approving of it, sometimes denouncing it, sometimes practising it, sometimes violating it. When BDH mentions being rational or reasonable, he usually mentions it as something to be desired, but JSH more often treats it as something to be distrusted or condemned: “all that is written and come in through the side of human understanding and reasoning should be disallowed.” JSH new Series Vol. 21 page 264.

To me, rationality is just not negotiable. When Brethren start to argue against rationality they have already lost the argument, because they are using human reasoning for the purpose of demolishing it. When Brethren ministers argue against human reasoning or “the natural mind” they are using these very things while at the same time denouncing them.

Why do I say rationality is not negotiable? Because to reject it is (1) dishonest and (2) liable to lead you into falsehood. To me, truth is a good thing, so rejecting a reliable route to truth has to be a bad thing. If you start an argument with true premises and construct your argument according to valid logic, using either Aristotle’s propositional logic or modern predicate logic, you cannot finish up with a false conclusion. It never happens. So if observed, demonstrable facts and valid logic lead you to a conclusion that you don’t like, then the honest course of action is to accept it and modify your opinions as necessary. The dishonest course of action is to deny the facts, renounce rationality or just ignore the whole lot and bury your head in the sand.

A few journalists who were present at the Flat Earth Conference have discussed ways of arguing with flat-earthers. The depressing conclusion that several have come to is that flat-earthers are immune to facts or arguments. Honest ignorance is curable but wilful ignorance is almost beyond redemption. Some of us could have told them that.

Many of us remember being immersed in wilful ignorance, but some of us escaped from it, so we have reason to believe that flat-earthers and Exclusive Brethren are not totally beyond redemption. Don’t give up hope.

fisherman
Posts: 2763
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 3:22 pm

Re: Irrationality

Post by fisherman » Thu May 03, 2018 3:11 pm

Trying to have a rational discussion with a member of the EB ( as I once was,and 'defended the position' against the 'attack' ) is like trying to pick up a handful of jelly, there's nothing to hang on to.But the really neat thing about being in the EB is when you get backed into a crner ,it's still ok because 'even when you're wrong,you're right because you're in the right position' ...portable goalposts help too, because you can always move them( which they do frequently) ....depending on the situation and who's involved or what the spirit is stressing currently amongst us ( but we to 'judge evil 'you do recognise that ,don't you?

Rev Bob
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:34 pm

Re: Irrationality

Post by Rev Bob » Thu May 03, 2018 5:02 pm

I have heard that The Flat Earth Society is an active organization led by a Virginian man named Daniel Shenton who is apparently an evolutionist!

For our edification, can anyone comment on this?

The Erect Vessel
Posts: 488
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:19 am
Location: Snidey

Re: Irrationality

Post by The Erect Vessel » Fri May 04, 2018 1:50 am

You can google Daniel Shenton and there is plenty of contradictory stuff about him including whether he is still alive. Bit like the brethies with some of the leaders claiming to have had divine appearings... maybe in Piggyboy's case it was after he was a few sheets to the wind and not so sure about Grumpybum JSH who was not so much of a p***head as some of the others.

Interesting to see how some of the brethren who do escape the evil cult suffer in some cases with 'Stockholm Syndrome' for quite a while. I remember in my own case I only saw so much when I left, and felt uncomfortable when another ex brethren started criticizing JND. As time and information and listening to balanced argument I have a bit of a laugh at myself for being so gullible and naive - which of course because of the systemised brainwashing all of us have been.

I also understand now why the brethren in general look so miserable. The dissonance going on inside them is just a horrible situation.

So just one parting comment I am sure that you have never heard. (Heavy sarcasm btw) 'You would have to agree that Our Beloved was a pure man"

Aye...right!

fisherman
Posts: 2763
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 3:22 pm

Re: Irrationality

Post by fisherman » Fri May 04, 2018 2:15 am

'He was a pure man' became the EB's meet and greet mantra, much like the Jews 'shalom',they recited it by rote ( uh,hate to mention this but he WASN'T a 'pure man' ,no matter how many times they repeated it (Not worried about my 'eternal salvation' for questioning it either, just in case anybody was wondering -the 'big bad wolf' will have to huff and puff a bit harder ) amazing the effect fear has on these poor souls ,just exactly how they intended it to be ( Jesus said he came to 'cast out fear' ,not put it on people, the Pharisees employed that tactic -all cults,including the EB do)

Indeed,it makes me exceedingly angry what the EB leaders have done ,reducing what should have been a place of worship and a refuge for hurting people into a business opportunity.Is this the 'diferent gospel' that Paul warned the Galatisns about and said to 'have nothing to do with such people''?

Post Reply