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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:48 pm 
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Thanks for that article Ian. It is a good read and includes some interesting points. The comments about Origens shenanigans caught my attention for one. Prophecy is one thing, dispensationalism another. I see how a disagreement on some points of prophecy split Darby and Newton, but I don't know or remember just what the differences were. A main one seems to be related to Israel or the Jews as a nation distinct from the church. I don't quite follow the finer points of the argument, or just what is supposed to be wrong with the dispensational point of view. I'm wondering what the non dispensational school of thought is called, and what it teaches that makes it substantially different


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:36 pm 
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The dispensational idea is that God has two chosen peoples with separate plans for the two. Darby’s idea was that the prophecies concerning the Jews were interrupted during the Christian era and will be resumed at a later date. Some people express this by saying the prophetic clock stopped, and will be re-started after the rapture.

A part of this story is that most of Matthew’s gospel including the Sermon on the Mount was for Jews and doesn’t apply to us. That was probably what Newton meant when he said that if you accept that, you might as well give up Christianity.

Many Christians (perhaps including Paul) considered that God has only one plan for his people, and that Judaism has been superseded by Christianity, not only for us but for all people.

Iain Gibb wrote a rather clear explanation of this point on Peebs.net at one time. If I can find it, I may post a copy here.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:41 pm 
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Its been a long time since I gave any attention to this topic, but what you have described as being the dispensational idea is readily understandable and memorable to me since it is the belief I was raised on. On the other side, I don't see how you could conclude that Christianity has superseded Judaism and or Israel in the face of scriptures like Ezekiel 11 that say God will again gather them and give them the land of Israel or the land that He had given to Jacob. I think I begin to see or recall the Newton-Darby argument now. In turn I can understand Darby being excited that he thought he had "discovered truth" that would allow his and Newton's different view points to be reconciled.
-- If you are one who believes that God is more or less done with Israel and I don't, probably that is the same argument or a new one that arose between them? If so, what is the reasoning or logic behind the idea that Israel has no importance or future now? That would not be so readily found in my memory since it is not my belief, but if dispensationalism is wrong, I would like to understand how or why so I can walk away from what is wrong. Or not...


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:03 am 
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Stephen Sizer is one of the leading modern authorities on dispensationalism.

http://beginningwithmoses.org/oldsite/a ... heland.pdf


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:59 am 
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Iain Gibb wrote a long article on peebs.net on 13 September 2007 in which he gave his reasons for rejecting JND’s interpretation of prophesy concerning Israel, the rapture and the millennium. I won’t post the whole of his article here, but an important part of it is that according to the teachings of the Apostles, God’s promises to Israel are fulfilled figuratively in Christ and the church. Here is the heart of his argument.

Quote:
My problem with seeing this as a literal return to of the Jews to the land of Israel is that the New Testament sees everything promised to Israel being fulfilled in something far greater, i.e. in Christ and the grafting in of the Gentiles.
(1) God said to the Israelites at Sinai – Exodus 19: 5 “Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation”. Peter applies that to the Church – 1 Peter 2:9 “you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation”
(2) Hosea said to Israel – Hosea 2:23 – “I will say to those called 'Not my people, ' 'You are my people'; and they will say, 'You are my God.' " . Peter applies that to the church – 1 Peter 2:10 “Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God”
(3) Ezekiel 40-48 speaks of a new temple being built, with sacrifices once again being offered. Peter applies that to the church – 1 Peter 2:5 “you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ”
(4) Circumcision was a commandment to Israel. Paul applies it figuratively to the church – Philippians 3:3 – “it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh”
(5) Israel claimed special relationship to God because they were descended from Abraham. Paul says all believers are spiritually descended from Abraham. Galatians 3:29 “If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed”
(6) Paul says calls the Church, ‘The Israel of God’. Galatians 6:16 - ”Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation. Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God”
(7) Christ destroyed the barrier between Jew and Gentile. In the light of Ephesians 2:14, can you ever imagine God re-establishing it or making a difference once again between Jew and Gentile? “Christ has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility”
(8 ) Paul, preaching at Pisidian Antioch in Acts 13:32 explicitly states that the promises to Israel HAVE BEEN fulfilled in Christ – “What God promised our fathers He has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus”
(9) The terms Zion and Jerusalem are used repeatedly in the Old Testament to refer to the people of Israel as whole. Hebrews 12:22 uses these terms figuratively to refer to the church: “you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God”

So I reject therefore any distinction between Israel and the church. God may in His sovereignty bring many Jews to faith in Christ – but in doing so they will be members of the Church, not a distinct entity – not now, not in the “millennium”, not ever. The hopes of a Jewish person are the same as for anyone else – in Christ alone, and what is offered through Christ is infinitely greater than a piece of land in Palestine. There are no degrees of blessing offered to different people through faith in Christ because of their ancestry. Some may not agree, and have many verses to throw back at me. I cannot answer them all in one posting, but I see this as the fundamental error that destroys all of Darby’s dispensational teaching.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:43 am 
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This all reminds me of the microscopic issues l witnessed in the 1950s as a disturbed and confused kid.If this is religion l want none of it. As my psych wife said to me last night, it is no wonder how many ex peebs become agnostic or atheist as my late wife became, ensuring my 5 children became the same.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:36 pm 
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Given the danger that dispensationalism brings to the entire world, not just a few religious extremists, it's is a good thing that there are people who are able and willing to make opposite arguments to those of the fundamentalist evangelicals.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:00 am 
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Ian McKay wrote:
The dispensational idea is that God has two chosen peoples with separate plans for the two. Darby’s idea was that the prophecies concerning the Jews were interrupted during the Christian era and will be resumed at a later date. Some people express this by saying the prophetic clock stopped, and will be re-started after the rapture.

A part of this story is that most of Matthew’s gospel including the Sermon on the Mount was for Jews and doesn’t apply to us. That was probably what Newton meant when he said that if you accept that, you might as well give up Christianity.

Many Christians (perhaps including Paul) considered that God has only one plan for his people, and that Judaism has been superseded by Christianity, not only for us but for all people.

Iain Gibb wrote a rather clear explanation of this point on Peebs.net at one time. If I can find it, I may post a copy here.


Darby objected to the Lord's prayer saying it was for the Jews.

Anothe item caught my attention in that he held similar beliefs about the telegraph as the peebs did about computers!

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:42 am 
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US and other evangelical fundamentalists certainly disreguard the Sermon in the Mount, not just the EB. They do, however, cling tenaciously to a few doubtful verses in Leviticus. I mention US because of their large and influential presence, not because I am picking out Americans. I believe Australian and SA fundamentalists are just the same, as are those in the UK although the latter are very much a minority sport.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:30 pm 
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My understanding, based only on casual reading rather than research, is that J N D visited USA and was influential in establishing the dispensationalism and Christian fundamentalism which prevails to this day. The same might be said of Australasia. Can someone give a clearer historical picture on this topic?

In view of the impact worldwide of various forms of fundamentalism, should we remain neutral as to what is near at hand?


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