Recently discovered ministry of J. N. Darby

Forum rules
Please note: This forum allows the use of anonymous usernames and is a public forum. This means that there probably are members of the PBCC active in the forums. They may try to befriend you with the intention of gathering information that should not get out into the public domain. Be very careful what you say to persons that you do not know. Bear in mind too, that use of a username on another site or forum may not necessarily be the same person on WP with the same username. There have also been actions of copying what is said here to use elsewhere. This is not allowed. Please read the forum rules properly. Full forum rules can be found at http://wikipeebia.com/forum
PosterChild
Posts: 252
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:10 pm

Re: Recently discovered ministry of J. N. Darby

Post by PosterChild » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:53 pm

Dearest Petard, ( too many dammed (hello?!--shut m' mouth!) Peters on this site,-- may I remember which is which by way of a fitting nickname?)


Here I was all in a joyous state of exuberance at having found someone near at hand knowledgeable about subjects of eternal import imperfectly known to myself, and now it seems you think me unworthy of your attention. I am deeply saddened, and in fact I have just narrowly missed being run over by a double decker having tripped over my upper lip into the motorway.

Notwithstanding your reluctance to join in rational discussion, I propose a handful of questions related to my limited understanding of RC doctrine. 

 Have I been misled in my understanding of what I read and hear?
Consider:

Roman Catholic remission is proportional to the degree of perfection in the disposition of the partaker of the mass... ?
 
Not to mention that the priests intention must be pure for the mass to be valid in the first place...?

Righteousness is necessary prior to justification, and said righteousness is attained by human working in conjunction with infused grace? 

Mortal sin wipes out all previously attained heights of partial righteousness forcing a necessary reboot of the whole process of progress towards righteousness from ground 0?

Pergatory is a holding place this side of hell where the progress towards the needed ( prior to justification ) righteousness is continued for the dead by means of morally superior folks excess righteousness being applied along with prayers for the dead, to those who failed to attain righteousness while alive?

Those of us who believe in imputed righteousness and gifted justification are damned? 
Who is judgemental of who here?

If this be true, it becomes immediately apparent why the concept of the rapture would be cause for alarm, discomfort, and denial. 
The RC system appears to me incapable of offering assurance or peace. Only uncertainty, fear, money extraction and condemnation. Along with wondrous assuaging of tormented consciences by means of lovely opiate like music. 
Does the quantity of infused grace obtained by daily churchgoers benefit those who only go occasionally?

 What is the literal monetary value of the popes crown and vestments? Where does the money come from? Do you wish to ridicule a mere 40 thousand folk enriching a vastly lesser pope?
Fools.

Do I hear a pin drop? Silence from the wise men?

While I am not so much offended ( as are your non judgemental companions) by your putrid potty mouth, the vapid vacuous vociferouseness of your explosive nature is alarming coming from such an educated mind.
I don't want to be judgmental or dogmatic but I Am. 


Is.

"Unless ye believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" . 

 The dead in Christ ( clearly a reference to mass believers, (that was a seriously fractal ( do you need every dammed thing explained?) joke),who actually believe the soul damning mass---or does it mean the mass of the redeemed?)) rise first. Then we the living (en mass) -- those " in Christ" shall be caught up in perpetual dogmatic discussion. Argue that if you can.
 
It's our choice. Die in Christ, or in our sins. 
There is One who justifies the ungodly. Consult Romans 3:36, or is it a mortal sin to read the bible and think for yourself?

I don't think to be misunderstood I just typify in cyberspace.

PeterF

Re: Recently discovered ministry of J. N. Darby

Post by PeterF » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:52 pm

PosterChild wrote:Dearest Petard, ( too many dammed (hello?!--shut m' mouth!) Peters on this site,-- may I remember which is which by way of a fitting nickname?)


Here I was all in a joyous state of exuberance at having found someone near at hand knowledgeable about subjects of eternal import imperfectly known to myself, and now it seems you think me unworthy of your attention. I am deeply saddened, and in fact I have just narrowly missed being run over by a double decker having tripped over my upper lip into the motorway.

Notwithstanding your reluctance to join in rational discussion, I propose a handful of questions related to my limited understanding of RC doctrine. 

 Have I been misled in my understanding of what I read and hear?
Consider:

Roman Catholic remission is proportional to the degree of perfection in the disposition of the partaker of the mass... ?
 
Not to mention that the priests intention must be pure for the mass to be valid in the first place...?

Righteousness is necessary prior to justification, and said righteousness is attained by human working in conjunction with infused grace? 

Mortal sin wipes out all previously attained heights of partial righteousness forcing a necessary reboot of the whole process of progress towards righteousness from ground 0?

Pergatory is a holding place this side of hell where the progress towards the needed ( prior to justification ) righteousness is continued for the dead by means of morally superior folks excess righteousness being applied along with prayers for the dead, to those who failed to attain righteousness while alive?

Those of us who believe in imputed righteousness and gifted justification are damned? 
Who is judgemental of who here?

If this be true, it becomes immediately apparent why the concept of the rapture would be cause for alarm, discomfort, and denial. 
The RC system appears to me incapable of offering assurance or peace. Only uncertainty, fear, money extraction and condemnation. Along with wondrous assuaging of tormented consciences by means of lovely opiate like music. 
Does the quantity of infused grace obtained by daily churchgoers benefit those who only go occasionally?

 What is the literal monetary value of the popes crown and vestments? Where does the money come from? Do you wish to ridicule a mere 40 thousand folk enriching a vastly lesser pope?
Fools.

Do I hear a pin drop? Silence from the wise men?

While I am not so much offended ( as are your non judgemental companions) by your putrid potty mouth, the vapid vacuous vociferouseness of your explosive nature is alarming coming from such an educated mind.
I don't want to be judgmental or dogmatic but I Am. 


Is.

"Unless ye believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" . 

 The dead in Christ ( clearly a reference to mass believers, (that was a seriously fractal ( do you need every dammed thing explained?) joke),who actually believe the soul damning mass---or does it mean the mass of the redeemed?)) rise first. Then we the living (en mass) -- those " in Christ" shall be caught up in perpetual dogmatic discussion. Argue that if you can.
 
It's our choice. Die in Christ, or in our sins. 
There is One who justifies the ungodly. Consult Romans 3:36, or is it a mortal sin to read the bible and think for yourself?

I don't think to be misunderstood I just typify in cyberspace.
You risk being injured by the device that you intended to use to injure others.

A petard is, or rather was, as they have long since fallen out of use, except possibly by souls [?] such as yourself, a small engine of war used to blow breaches in gates or walls. They were originally metallic and bell-shaped but later cubical wooden boxes. Whatever the shape, the significant feature was that they were full of gunpowder - basically what we would now call a bomb.

I rest my case and trust you find rest for your tormented soul as you view the world from your own created revolving door.

Ian McKay
Posts: 1464
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:04 am

Re: Recently discovered ministry of J. N. Darby

Post by Ian McKay » Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:42 pm

Dear PosterChild,

I have been thinking about the points you made in your comments on Roman Catholicism at http://wikipeebia.com/forums/viewtopic. ... =80#p11577.

It is easy to find fault with Roman Catholicism, especially if you have been brought up in a culture rich in Calvinist influences. For instance, it is easy to find scriptures that appear to contradict Catholic teachings, and it is easy to find Catholic practices that have harmful consequences, and it is easy to find Catholic arguments that are logically weak or frankly irrational.

That given, I think it is important to realise that the same can be said of any church, or at least any of the churches that I am familiar with. They all have some questionable teachings, values, and practices. They all quote the scriptures that appear to support their views and they either ignore or explain away the scriptures that appear to contradict them. None of them is entirely consistent, entirely moral, entirely scriptural, entirely rational or entirely good.

It is also important to recognise that most of us with a religious upbringing have been exposed to a certain amount of propaganda against other denominations. In Protestant sects, for instance, it is very common to misrepresent Roman Catholicism to show it in a bad light, and I suppose Catholic children are probably also exposed to a certain amount of anti-Protestant propaganda. We need to be aware of this, so that we can compensate for prejudice that has been indoctrinated into us.

The Exclusive Brethren have been particularly guilty of engineering scathing propaganda against everyone but themselves. The whole of Christendom is apostate, “the world” is ruled by Satan, it is getting progressively more wicked and is shortly to be destroyed if you believe what nearly every one of their leaders has said.

So I have no sympathy with the notion that there is one uniquely right form of Christianity and all the others are wrong. The fact is they are all wrong about some things, and some are more wrong than others. In my experience, the ones that are most wrong are those that claim to be uniquely right, and the ones that are nearest to being credible are the ones that make no such proud claim, recognising that we don’t have all the answers and we don’t have cognitive certainty.

However, it is possible to have another kind of certainty. We can’t be certain that a particular set of religious beliefs or practices are the right ones, but we can be certain that one particular way of life is the one I want to commit myself to. Identifying it depends more on love than on cognition.

The Questioner
Posts: 948
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:23 am

Re: Recently discovered ministry of J. N. Darby

Post by The Questioner » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:20 am

My wife and I were once in a uniquely perfect church. We had fully understood the scriptures and had everything right. We were, of course, the only members.

Then my wife got a bit fed up because it was her turn to preach and I found that unacceptable. So she resigned.

I continue in lonely faithfulness.

Ian McKay
Posts: 1464
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:04 am

Re: Recently discovered ministry of J. N. Darby

Post by Ian McKay » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:58 am

That is a bit reminiscent of what J. N. Darby wrote in 1840, during his non-sectarian years. He would rather not join any church at all if the only ones available were exclusive, in the sense that they excluded those who held different opinions.

See JND Letters Vol. 1 no. 13
I could not recognise an assembly that does not receive all the children of God, because I know that Christ receives them.
. . .
I would rather remain alone and isolated, a position, I admit, not at all desirable, than to restrict the limits of the church of Christ to some brethren, even though they may be more correct in their thoughts than others

PosterChild
Posts: 252
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:10 pm

Re: Recently discovered ministry of J. N. Darby

Post by PosterChild » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:46 am

TQ,
 
You have encouraged me to share a recent experience. Its not clear in my mind if it was on earth or not, whether or not it was real or not, but it really felt like it was all really very real. Really. See?


That reminds me of the time a ship rescued me from my castaway  island. After 10 years alone on my island of lonely isolation, a passing ship chanced to overnight not far off.  Apprehensive of all humankind by this time in my life, I nevertheless ventured out on a small raft I had made for myself, but this not before much internal deliberation prayer and fasting.  (I  didn't cut myself or tear out the corners of my beard, that being a known pagan practice, besides none of my allegorical island companions had recently died.)
 Fear struck at my heart, but the scriptures "they shall take up serpents;--it shall not injure them" , and "behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age." and Michah's comment to Jehoshaphat (?Ahab)  (or was it the prophets mouths in which was the lying spirit..? --couldn’t recall) "Go up, and prosper" (or was it Zedekiah..?) --or was the real prophet being sarcastic… Oh!, my consternation at being unable to accurately recall the section! "Direction! Lead me!"  In the end I decided the prophets are wrong anyway, which prodded me to attempt a visit to the ship. "Gird up thy loins like a man" Spurred me on.
Gathering my only important belongings (my threadbare meeting clothes and unread Bible) I ventured out. It was coming on for twilight when I approached close enough to be noticed by the lookout who upon seeing my raft sounded his alarm. Soon I found myself on board an Innocent looking but Formidable warship the HMS Bitumen Solidified ("Pavement" "Place of a Skull""Mind of the Flesh" raced through my mind as I saw it!) and in company of the kindly old captain. He was good enough to ward off the curiosity of his crew, and soon I was asleep in a warm berth.
Morning came, and we were to soon be off. The captain asked would I like to retrieve anything more from the island, to which I replied not, but said it would be nice to circle the island so I could see it all one last time. As we circled the land, some of the more prominent  features came into view. Rounding an outcropping of rock, the captain asked what was the structure he was seeing sitting atop it. I replied that it was my little house I had built when I had first arrived, and I told him it had weathered all storms since it was first built. Soon we could see a second structure at the vegetated edge of the beach, and he wanted to know what that was.  It was, I said, the church I had built and faithfully attended to hear sermons every Lords Day for most of my unexpected stay. (Since I had no time piece, I think Lordsday may have rolled around nearly 7 days a week.) I was thrilled to learn that he was a religious man, and later in the voyage, we shared many good arguments. I learned that he is thoroughly confused, hopelessly lost, and wandering in error, but that is another story. We both still have all our teeth, he his sextant, and I my Bible.
As we reached the far, far end of the island, (there's a volcano in the middle) we passed my most recent project, another building of sorts.  Its structure and design clearly different (lots of reed woven cloth, upright posts, bamboo rings and the like) than the other two buildings, the captain wanted to know what this one was for.  With much shamefacedness and due humility, I informed him that although it was not finished,  it was to have been the islands new church. I had not long ago withdrawn from the other church for its false teaching on various recently recovered truths which it stubbornly refused to adopt. In fact I said, it was to be only a fortnight hence and I had been predestinated to speak at the cutting to ribbons ceremony. He seemed puzzled, but I assured him I really had been very patient, but in the end was left with no other choice than to "come out from among them".  He wanted to know what that meant, and oh! The joyous talks we had throughout the ensuing voyage! The entire population of the ship was converted ere long, and it was re-named the HMS Ruminant Rumblings. Bone came to bone, and sinews, flesh! Lo! Behold! 
The gif of Infernal Strife among the sanctimonious! The church of the menagerienes born of a stomachache! We will be dipping with both oars for several million years yet, but rest assured we will achieve affectionate perfection in the end. Come pull with us!


Ian,
 
Thank you for the comments. I agree with a lot or possibly all of what you say. On  the other hand, I am not so sure I agree with what you mean.

 As you know, brethren (and thus myself) are not well versed on other religions, or other well known concepts like "Calvinism" and its main competitor. -- ? Arminianism? -- While I don't have a settled grasp on just what these two ideas entail or contain, or which one is which, I think the main argument there revolves around mans responsibility vs Gods sovereignty.  (at the moment, I am not going to search for accuracy on these names or concepts although they do interest me )
I agree that everyone is more or less, but probably deeply, influenced by their upbringing and surroundings regardless of what they are. I suppose some cultures think it normal to be kind to their family and friends by inviting them over for a beer and some beans with beef steak. Another culture might show kindness to family and friends by inviting them over to share a feast of the most recently conquered Englishmen. Or Germans as the case may be. With a little Spanish blood to drink of course. There are in my opinion, things, teaching and practices, that God would have me to be prejudiced against. I don't pretend to be able so sort them accurately or entirely. He doesn't seem to have taken kindly to worship allegedly directed at Him via a golden calf.
I hope that I am willing to acknowledge what you say about potential misdirected prejudices, and to that end, perhaps you will say what you might be thinking in regard of Calvinist influences.
 
As far as Roman Catholicism and my comments,  it is not a system I am consciously familiar with. I can read a copy of what I assume is an accurate representation of the authoritative doctrine (Council of Trent etc) or read what its opposers say of it. But someone with firsthand knowledge of it should be able to tell me if I get the picture accurately or not.  For that reason, and since there are those within earshot on this site who seem to support it, I have asked some questions about it of those who should know. This is my attempt to validate or invalidate what I have read and heard -- by means of conversing with those who should be intimately familiar with it. The hand full of canons I have read in the Council of Trent documents I have seen, are direct, distinct, and hard to misunderstand. (notwithstanding some olde English…)
 If there is a danger of misrepresenting it, I suppose the only way to avoid that would be to read and quote its settled authoritative manuscripts and nothing else.
From what I do know of it ( rightly or wrongly ) I don't understand how someone having peace toward God having been justified on principle of faith, could understand the RC doctrine and continue in it. In fact, someone has referred to the 39 articles, which seem to me to say the RC doctrines are at least in part wrong. This seems doubly confused or confusing to me. To support RC doctrine and the 39 articles at the same time? What?  Is it me that is on some good drugs? Or is the copy of the 39 articles I have seen all incorrect? Or is it another case of believing something never read?
 
EB are "particularly guilty" of engineering scathing propaganda? When, where, how, who,? I am not particularly disagreeing with you nor am I  asking for a comprehensive list, but sweeping scathing propaganda against one particular group is hardly better than against a lot of groups is it? (I refer to your  partially quoted sentence )
 
"So I have no sympathy with the notion that there is one uniquely right form of Christianity and all the others are wrong."
Ok, I agree and I don't agree. I think there is one Holy Catholic Apostolic church.  Just one.  But I neither know where to look for it, nor do I try to find it. Having recently been rescued from my island, it probably won't be found for some years yet.
 
Love you say? Huh? What is that? Do you decide the parameters or does God? There is kindly affection in hades or hell I think. "Send Lazarus to talk to my brothers so they won't come here"

Ian McKay
Posts: 1464
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:04 am

Re: Recently discovered ministry of J. N. Darby

Post by Ian McKay » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:36 am

Dear PosterChild,

You raise some important questions, some of which can be partly answered.

Everyone here probably accepts what you say about RC doctrines being partly wrong. Many devout Roman Catholics would probably agree too. If any church claimed to be totally right about everything, most of us would dismiss its claim as empty bragging.

I wouldn’t criticise Calvinism any more than most other Christian traditions. I only mentioned it because that is the influence most of us were raised in. The Exclusive Brethren are largely Calvinist, and in some respects J. N. Darby was more Calvinist than Calvin, particularly in his views on predestination, amounting to denial of the existence of free will.

I referred to the Brethren’s scathing propaganda against everyone except themselves. When they refer to “Christendom” they mean all branches of the Christian church except themselves. When they refer to “the saints” they usually mean only themselves. When they refer to “the world” they mean any human institution or activity apart from themselves. And their ministry contains relentless assertions that “the world” and “Christendom” are bad, wicked, apostate and ruled by Satan, whereas “the saints” are the only area that God is interested in.

For instance, we have statements like the following.

Ministry of J.T.Jr., Vol. 3 page 59 (Brooklyn, NY, 31 January 1956)
A.B.P. You have in mind that the Lord, in our chapter, referred, not only to leaders at that time who were imposters, but that He looked on to what would develop in Christendom, so that eventually it becomes antichrist in character?
Letters of J.T.Jr., Vol. 3 pages 15-16 (BROOKLYN, N.Y. 16 September 1960) [About having a meal with non-Brethren. The word “invariably” is in italics in the original.]
I used to go and eat but have stopped long since. If we are minded to go, it would not be the mind of the Spirit and invariably we are contaminated when we do go, for the uncleanness comes out over the table.
Ministry of J.T.Jr., Vol. 7 page 442 (Peterhead, 8 February 1961)
J.T.Jr. Yes, that is a very good illustration of the rest the Lord had at Bethany. No doubt suggesting much amongst us that the Lord finds rest in, and yet it is an inside position that is in Judas. What is inside has come out in full blown condition in Christendom. What Judas was personally is extended to Christendom, the Lord has been betrayed in Christendom and in a smaller sense but in a real sense He has been betrayed since the recovery of the truth. It came in almost immediately in the open brethren position, the exposure of conditions that were amongst us.
Ministry of J.T.Jr., Vol. 13 page 186-187 (St Etienne, 10-12 November 1961)
J.T. Jr. . . . but I believe the apostate condition is what preceded it, that is, what christendom is today is the result of apostasy.
Ministry of J. T. Jr., Vol. 89, page 100-101 (Plainfield, New Jersey, 22 February 1963)
Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light, and therefore we have in the area of christendom the full development from Satan of what exists at the present time.
Ministry of J.T.Jr., Vol. 114 page 88-89 (Calgary, 22-23 February 1968)
J.T.Jr. Oh, I think so. I do not think there is any communion in open brethrenism, and other things.
Readings at Nostrand Avenue and Other Ministry, Vol.1 page 100 (Rogers Avenue, New York, 18 September 1970) [referring to those who have left the Exclusives]
We can hardly regard those who have left the truth as christians.
And then we have endless assertions that only we are the church, no one else. And we have BDH’s similar assertions that those who leave the Exclusives cannot claim to be Christians. And we have even stronger and even more relentless condemnation of “the world”.

So that is how the Exclusive Brethren have been particularly guilty of engineering scathing propaganda against everyone but themselves.

You say,
Love you say? Huh? What is that? Do you decide the parameters or does God?
The two strongest influences on my faith have been the ministries of Jesus and Paul. Both of them have emphasised in a convincing way that love is the central essence of their teaching, and the whole fulfilment of the moral law. I can’t prove that they are right, but they seem rather convincing to me. John has also told us that God is love. The strength, resilience and durability of love is described in 1 Corinthians 13 and is confirmed by the experiences of many here. As a foundation on which to build your faith, I don’t know of any that is stronger, more resilient or more durable.

PosterChild
Posts: 252
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:10 pm

Re: Recently discovered ministry of J. N. Darby

Post by PosterChild » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:27 pm

That there is a great chapter and a wonderful concept Ian. Love it. I am reminded of James 3. Particularly the last verse, but the whole thing. Thank you.

So thankful for the advent of keyboards and the internet. ( thank God I am not like the rest of men) Clearly Psalms 144:1 is prophetic provision for our day allowing us to overcome the problem shown in verse 8 of James 3.

Post Reply