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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:43 am 
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PosterChild’s comment on punctuation is presumably a reference to the tittle in the KJV translation of Matthew 5:17-18. “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”

The word jot was a translation of the Greek iota, the smallest letter of the Greek alphabet. In the context, it probably meant the letter yod, the smallest letter of the Hebrew alphabet.

The word tittle was a translation of the Greek κεραια (keraia) which refers to the little strokes or squiggles that were written above some Greek words to show how they were pronounced or sometimes to show that they were abbreviated. If applied to Hebrew writing, it probably meant the little lines and projections by which the Hebrew letters of similar form differ from one another.

We can choose whether to call that punctuation or not, but in either case I don’t think Jesus would have meant anyone to take the statement literally. The jots and tittles and a lot more have come and gone, and have varied between many different manuscripts. The meaning I take from these verses is that the spirit of the law is more than fulfilled in the work and ministry of Jesus, and not the smallest item of value is lost.

I do not take the meaning that the Holy Scriptures are perfect and immutable.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:31 am 
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Ian McKay wrote:
PosterChild’s comment on punctuation is presumably a reference to the tittle in the KJV translation of Matthew 5:17-18. “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”

The word jot was a translation of the Greek iota, the smallest letter of the Greek alphabet. In the context, it probably meant the letter yod, the smallest letter of the Hebrew alphabet.

The word tittle was a translation of the Greek κεραια (keraia) which refers to the little strokes or squiggles that were written above some Greek words to show how they were pronounced or sometimes to show that they were abbreviated. If applied to Hebrew writing, it probably meant the little lines and projections by which the Hebrew letters of similar form differ from one another.

We can choose whether to call that punctuation or not, but in either case I don’t think Jesus would have meant anyone to take the statement literally. The jots and tittles and a lot more have come and gone, and have varied between many different manuscripts. The meaning I take from these verses is that the spirit of the law is more than fulfilled in the work and ministry of Jesus, and not the smallest item of value is lost.

I do not take the meaning that the Holy Scriptures are perfect and immutable.


...or necessarily that Holy? I wonder if the peebs school versions of the buble have pages stuck together and/or passages torwn out? Was l the only little feral perverted kid who knew every dirty bit in ghe bible? At one reseadch meeting a lovely old nun who was an excellent scholar commented that we could do without Leviticus and Song of Songs.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:10 pm 
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Yessir Peter, if they aren't perfect, they aren't Holy. Try holding those opposite theories simultaneously and see if you are any less delusional than our dear PB loved ones. Headache anyone?

That's the one I meant Ian. "punctuation" is probably not quite right. 
Later in Mathew Jesus says his words won't pass away, but the heavens and earth will, after having given description of earth shattering happenings prior to His coming. Around chapter 24 I think. While various meanings can be implied or derived from His explanation of the end, the first one I would subscribe to is what he says. Sort of like the account of the cup bearer or baker or something..."as he said, so it happened-me he removed from prison, him he hanged" ( pardon my faulty memory)







27  For as the lightning goes forth from the east and shines to the west, so shall be the coming of the Son of man


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:46 pm 
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I suggest looking to the scriptures for 'direction' is a far more useful guide for daily living then trying to decide exactly what a single word ,complicated by multiple translations means( course,there not a lot of wiggle room in admonitions about drunkenness ,'creature of God' notwithstanding ) .Christ dealt with this exact same issue with the Pharisees who were totally preoccupied with minute details of the law,but neglected the greater issues.Exclusive Brethren,their modern day counterparts were so concerned with 'purity' and 'separating from evil' that they totally missed the message the lord was both teaching and showing by example,today you wouldn't recognise them as a 'Christian' church,much less 'followers of Jesus'..

One of the most dangerous pitfalls is to equate ANYBODIES 'ministry' with scripture ....its just not, period. Strangely enough,this us what ALL cults claim , that they alone have a 'special message from God' no one else has...that THEY are the ONLY ones who can interpret scriptures and everyone has to adhere to THEIR 'flavour of the week' views which are harshly enforced,only often as not just as quickly dropped...the big problem is once they turn away from scripture is they have is they always have to be coming out with some 'new' gimmick to maintain controll...


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:10 pm 
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That is a reasonable concept Fisherman. Getting direction for daily life from scripture. But then if Darby is responsible for the dispensational school of thought that separates Israel and the church, and if that view is not according to God, doesn't that mean you should obey the Mosaic law? If Paul actually teaches against or contrary to the law, doesn't Deuteronomy 13 plainly justify the Jewish rejection of Christianity? If my trigonometry is correct, dispensationalism allows me to believe the Jews insisting on the law are then correct in rejecting Paul and our Lord (since both are pretty much accused of changing the law), while at the same time letting me believe that the Christian way to please God in daily life is by discarding select portions of the law and observing other parts of it. In other words our unchanging God is pleased with law keeping Jews and law dismissing Christians simultaneously getting opposite direction from scripture for daily life. I think that means dispensationalism (welcome to my world) is the ultimate cognitive dissonance vehicle. I am likely missing some alternate possibilities, but I think this all means that a non dispensationalist needs to keep the whole law or be included in a second equally absurd camp of cognitive dissonance.


All in all, it means that minute meanings of words are held by all, and it all depends on what is is.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:46 pm 
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Being totally sickened by the politics, one upmanship ,hypocricy,duplicity and self interest of 'exclusive brethren' which did not tally with what I read of the life and teachings of the Christ of the gospels I turned my back on most of the 'issues' which had preoccupied my early years.I got to admit after that my world is pretty much totally occupied with dealing with kids who have no dads,and all the resulting social ills that go along with it,drugs,addictions, prostitution,courts, incarceration, and that doesn't leave next much time to delve into the various nuances of scripture or doctrinal differences of opinion.JND may have been right or he may have been wrong on some of his views,probably some where in the middle is closer to the truth.I don't know and I don't lose a lot of sleep over it,what does cost me sleep is phone calls in the middle of the night...' Can you please come and get me?' or collect calls from jail....
My theology is simplistic at best and I do derive direction and comfort from the scriptures and I do read some authors like Oswald Chambers and others books of faith and inspiration ,but I don't read much EB ministry ,past or present....


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:29 am 
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fisherman wrote:
Being totally sickened by the politics, one upmanship ,hypocricy,duplicity and self interest of 'exclusive brethren' which did not tally with what I read of the life and teachings of the Christ of the gospels I turned my back on most of the 'issues' which had preoccupied my early years.I got to admit after that my world is pretty much totally occupied with dealing with kids who have no dads,and all the resulting social ills that go along with it,drugs,addictions, prostitution,courts, incarceration, and that doesn't leave next much time to delve into the various nuances of scripture or doctrinal differences of opinion.JND may have been right or he may have been wrong on some of his views,probably some where in the middle is closer to the truth.I don't know and I don't lose a lot of sleep over it,what does cost me sleep is phone calls in the middle of the night...' Can you please come and get me?' or collect calls from jail....
My theology is simplistic at best and I do derive direction and comfort from the scriptures and I do read some authors like Oswald Chambers and others books of faith and inspiration ,but I don't read much EB ministry ,past or present....


I dont read my bible much these days per se but do read the Daily Missal at special times and feasts. I find a lot of comfort in Saint Augustine's Prayer Book (Book of Devotions 2014 edition). Some of the oldies had very strong and pure faith and l find strength in what they have penned. Many fundamentalist indoctrinatees will reject written prayers which means they miss out on what could help them address the PTSD++ effects of early indoctrination. Many of us are really quite unaware of what we really do not know and the self assurance of our own knowledge as peebs is a very big stumbling block. An open mind is something some of us will never achieve.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:54 am 
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In chapter 4 of Mark's gospel Jesus is presented as speaking to them in parables. The section concludes with "without a parable He did not speak to them". Parables are not meant to be taken literally, rather they rely on 'good ground' for the best result. Are we not in danger of missing the point of new covenant ministry if we insist on hanging our faith on literal words (which are always subject to fallible human interpretation) rather than opening the heart to 'the spirit which quickens'?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:14 am 
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Spot on!

Even the sermon on the mount? Of course, how many literally limit themselves to one coat?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:29 pm 
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Parables are meant to make us think,not to be taken literally.When the prophet Nathan went to King David he told him a story about a poor man and a rich man who took his one lamb for his own feast.King David reacted strongly and Nathan said 'thou art the man' .

The brethren interpret 'hating mother or father ' literally to justify breaking up families in spite of scripture saying 'what God has joined together let not man put asunder' but don't cut off their hand or pluck out their eye if it offends them...clearly some scripture is allegorical, but I doubt the strong admonition against drunkeness falls into this catagory,or Pauls specific qualifications for leadership..funny the things brethren choose to turn a blind eye to...


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