WILL ANYONE EVER STAND UP TO TRUMP OR HALES?

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PeterF

Re: WILL ANYONE EVER STAND UP TO TRUMP OR HALES?

Post by PeterF » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:19 am

abishag wrote:Remember I said that the ark story was a bit dodgy. Well I've done some research. Apparently it was not only dodgy - but impossible. Yes I know all things are possible with God but the ark itself was impossible. Given the natural resources available where it was built, it was even more impossible. If it were built in a forest of Douglas Firs, it might have a chance. Except, according to the naval experts, that still wouldn't work.

According to the bible, it was built from gopher wood. Funnily enough gopher wood has never been heard of since and was probably Cyprus wood which does not grow to the great lengths - or strength required for a vessel which measured according to the scripture, somewhere between 437 and 512 feet depending on which official version of a cubit you went with.

The longest wooden boat ever built in the world was 360 feet and not seaworthy. See- a timber vessel cannot withstand the pressures of both waves and water over that length. Given that the hull would have been cobbled together out of hundreds of trees it is impossible according to modern naval architects for a vessel such as this - given the joinery methods that were employed at that time - to hang together. The fact that Noah was over 450 years old at the time also doesn't help. But its own weight would have destroyed it before it ever saw water. Which is why long ships are built from steel.


So forgetting the animals that Noah could not have collected - the entire story might just have been a bit of a fairy tale. I daresay there are quite a few of those in the bible.
Seeing everthing in the bible is so true, l often cry for the Antarctic penguins and how long it would have taken the poor things to get to the ark, let alone the terrible crossing of the equator. And then the requirements for the fish and sea creatures, and how was peace maintained as everything was fed. Maybe predatory behaviour post dated the ark?

abishag
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Re: WILL ANYONE EVER STAND UP TO TRUMP OR HALES?

Post by abishag » Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:22 pm

Poster Child- nice try but no cigar. They had no way of forging or processing steel in the sizes that would be required to hang a vessel this big together. Basically- the keel is key to any vessels structural integrity. And on a wooden boat that length it was estimated that you would need a piece of wood 400 feet long and about 6 feet high x four feet wide. Given that there are no trees of those dimensions with the remote exception of maybe a Jarrah from Western Australia or a Douglas Fir from America, they would be the only trees for the job - but these were not available in the middle east. And for those of you who say - CEDAR! They have Cedar! Cedar has very little structural integrity as it is far too soft. So the story is looking very unlikely.

fisherman
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Re: WILL ANYONE EVER STAND UP TO TRUMP OR HALES?

Post by fisherman » Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:32 pm

Many ancient cultures have anecdotal stories of a 'flood'.The local First Nations have a legend that they weren't getting along with each other which angered the 'Creator' who decided to drown the lot of them and start fresh and so caused a big flood .A few survivors escaped in a war canoe which came to rest on Mount Tzuhalem ,just north of here. No mention of what happened to the animals though.What actually happened in the biblical event,I don't know-wasn't there.

I prefer to look at the lessons the story of the flood told,which are just as relevant today rather than running around climbing mountains looking for bits of fossilized wood *purportedly from the ark or trying to disprove the possability of its existence...one interesting bit of trivia though and that is the diamentions of the biblical ark are the criteria for a displacement hull designed for maximum stability,in fact one might conclude that the ark was the result of 'intelligent design'by a master marine architect...

* I picked up a piece of what appears to be fossilized wood,it's up on my mantle piece ....picked it up on a hunting trip up near the summit of Mt Tzuhalem...is that 'proof' of the legend of a flood the local natives still tell?
Last edited by fisherman on Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

The Questioner
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Re: WILL ANYONE EVER STAND UP TO TRUMP OR HALES?

Post by The Questioner » Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:56 pm

Valuing the lessons of the flood I without believing in its literal accuracy seems to me to be a good thing. But believing in the literality of the story means you have to undertake so many contortions as to diminishi the value of the story: it's value becomes merely an ultimately fruitless attempt to prove the impossible.

fisherman
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Re: WILL ANYONE EVER STAND UP TO TRUMP OR HALES?

Post by fisherman » Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:09 pm

If we become so occupied in either proving or disproving the actual event,and in the meantime overlook the moral lessons,then I suggest we have missed the point.

The Lord told the story about the ' wolves in sheeps clothing' ,'servants who worked for hire' , and 'evil men' who would 'arise from within your ownselves not sparing the flock 'and I think we missed that point too...

abishag
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Re: WILL ANYONE EVER STAND UP TO TRUMP OR HALES?

Post by abishag » Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:52 am

What happened to Mt Ararat Fisherman??? In Turkey I believe. This is where legend has it that the Ark came to rest.

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Balaam's Ass
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Re: WILL ANYONE EVER STAND UP TO TRUMP OR HALES?

Post by Balaam's Ass » Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:05 am

Remember I said that the ark story was a bit dodgy
Next you'll tell me a rainbow is a sign from God about no more floods, rather than a scientific principle learned in basic physics.

PosterChild
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Re: WILL ANYONE EVER STAND UP TO TRUMP OR HALES?

Post by PosterChild » Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:51 am

fisherman wrote:If we become so occupied in either proving or disproving the actual event,and in the meantime overlook the moral lessons,then I suggest we have missed the point.
...
The Questioner wrote:Valuing the lessons of the flood I without believing in its literal accuracy seems to me to be a good thing. But believing in the literality of the story means you have to undertake so many contortions as to diminishi the value of the story: it's value becomes merely an ultimately fruitless attempt to prove the impossible.
So what are then gentlemen, the lessons or moral lessons of the flood? I trust neither of you are beating the air or without an opinion of the same.

PosterChild
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Re: WILL ANYONE EVER STAND UP TO TRUMP OR HALES?

Post by PosterChild » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:55 am

abishag wrote:Poster Child- nice try but no cigar. They had no way of forging or processing steel in the sizes that would be required to hang a vessel this big together. Basically- the keel is key to any vessels structural integrity. And on a wooden boat that length it was estimated that you would need a piece of wood 400 feet long and about 6 feet high x four feet wide. Given that there are no trees of those dimensions with the remote exception of maybe a Jarrah from Western Australia or a Douglas Fir from America, they would be the only trees for the job - but these were not available in the middle east. And for those of you who say - CEDAR! They have Cedar! Cedar has very little structural integrity as it is far too soft. So the story is looking very unlikely.
What size steel would have to be forged, and what size were they capable of forging then? And aren't glue lam beams stronger than natural timbers?

Ian McKay
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Re: WILL ANYONE EVER STAND UP TO TRUMP OR HALES?

Post by Ian McKay » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:45 am

The Sumerian, Babylonian, Hebrew and Greek flood stories all convey similar lessons, not all of which we would agree with today. The lessons include the idea that the gods may get angry with the human race because we are sinful or noisy, and may decide to wipe us out. They are all god-fearing stories. In more modern minds the message is that disasters happen, sometimes because we have caused them.

Today that message is still important. Major disasters are rare, but their magnitude means that in the long term they make a major contribution to the overall death rate, so they deserve our attention. Disasters might include runaway global warming, extreme weather, hurricanes, floods, earthquakes, an asteroid collision with Earth, destruction of the ozone layer, emerging resistance of bacteria to our antibiotics, viral pandemics, world wars, famines and eruption of a supervolcano such as the one rumbling under the Yellowstone National Park.

We should be aware of the possibilities, and consider what to do about it. We should take the best available advice about what the dangers are and plan ahead. Be prepared to contribute to a heroic effort if that is what it takes.

The exceptional piety or righteousness of the chosen survivors is a prominent message in several of the stories. Goodness is rewarded. In some ways experience supports this. Some kinds of goodness are indeed rewarded.

Several of the stories imply that the survival of animals is important, not merely the livestock that we use for food, but all kinds of animal life. This principle has implications for a lot of human activity and policies.

A more tongue-in-cheek exposition of the lessons to be learned from the flood can be found at http://www.godvine.com/read/lessons-from-noah-497.html

On a slightly different topic, the chronological table at the beginning of my Darby Bible says the flood occurred 1656 years after the creation, which would mean around the year 2348 BC. But archaeologists tell us that the Iron Age in the Eastern Mediterranean began about 1200 BC. Abishag and PosterChild may find this has some relevance to their ongoing discussion about marine engineering.

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